For the sake of history, I'm leaving the original text of this post in place--partly to remind myself of how stupid it was. You see, the little voice that normally tells me when to step away from the computer wasn't working today, and I ended up making a big mess as a result. I'm really sorry about that.
Andy, the MyBlogLog guys, and anyone else who wasted time reading this: I fucked up. I know better (most of the time) and should have just gone on with life.
I've already emailed you all privately, but wanted to say so in public as well. It's only appropriate to do so. I'll hold off from speculating about why this happened for another time.
I've also changed the title of this post.
Hey Andy, this isn't too cool:
And I suspect that you know better. You're a smart guy. So how about setting a good example instead of making me wonder how we should treat people trying to take advantage of the system? It's a pretty cheap stunt, ya know?
Thanks,
Jeremy
Update: I hate to put disclaimers on every little thing I write, but people never seem to stop trying to generalize from my personal complaints to larger company policies, opinions, etc. Don't do that, okay?
Posted by jzawodn at January 30, 2007 10:33 AM
That is highly dubious. And besides, who wants a frickin' Zune anyway?
I've been using MyBlogLog for awhile now, since before the Yahoo thing, when it was just an easy way to keep track of website traffic. These days I wonder how useful it is. Everyone who joins seems to run half a dozen blogs, all about affiliate or internet marketing, or SEO consulting. And all they want to do is blindly link everything in site. How boring.
The sad part is that there are probably still real people trying to use the service under the covers. One of my blogs is all about Shakespeare (I have 4 different blogs, none about marketing or SEO). Not gonna get rich that way, and I don't mind. But when somebody adds me as a contact and then writes a message saying "Love your blog!" do they really, or are they just looking for the link? I get a few dozen viagra comment spam every day that say the same thing.
I think you're seeing a small piece of the MyBlogLog ecosystem. The vast majority of contacts I've had are real poeple doing normal stuff, not trying to hype their sites or get cheap traffic.
Yeah that's not cool...
Mybloglog is nice, but it has some problems spam being one sometimes very slow load times another. I hope the acquisitions from Yahoo brings some resources to solve these problems and others and keep the service growing strong.
We're definitely working on the performance issues: putting more infrastrucutre in place and optimizing what's already there. That and keeping spam out are top priorities right now.
+1 on performance issues. I almost took it off my site because it was slowing it down too much.
It's difficult to ask this question without appearing to promote this project, but bear with me. I help the folks at DeSmogBlog.com with marketing stuff, and set them up with a MyBlogLog widget and profile.
Because there are 6-8 people who write DeSmogBlog, I used the site logo instead (here's the profile: http://tinyurl.com/37dvwq). Do you think that's kosher?
I suppose we're still working out the etiquette on this one, but I thought I'd ask.
Are you kidding me Jeremy? Do you know how much spam is going on at MyBlogLog. I create a contest that encourages people to join your community and you call it spam?
Jeremy,
I am glad to see the issues are being worked on, as I am sure they were. I just know that while all the transitions for acquisitions are happening (paper work, people reallocating, moving data centers, etc.) that sometimes the company being acquired stops productivity momentarily.
That seems totally reasonable to me, Darren.
As for performance, hang in there. We have changes coming in the near future that should help.
I've seen a lot more spam since I started visiting more MBL networked sites. I have gotten a few comments asking me to join communities. I agree with Duane that many are just trying to link to as many profiles and pages as possible and are not actually blogging or doing anything other than hyping a site or set of sites.
Well, I have to say this at least brings the problem of spamming to the forefront and I am glad that Yhoo is looking at this seriously.
If he's doing something wrong, why not remove the offensive bits, and communicate directly with him about the issue?
A public posting such as this just smells like link bait.
Peter:
For beter or worse, if I'm going to let people know that this stuff doesn't go unnoticed, I'm going to use someone I know as an example.
As for link bait... that's kinda funny.
Andy:
No, I'm not kidding. I don't like to see people misusing sites that I use: Flickr, MyBlogLog, whatever.
Haven't we moved past the "who can building the biggest list of friends" phase of networking yet?
Anyway, you also have email from me, so I'm pretty sure you understand my objection, whether or not you agree with it.
I think your just trying to help get him more members so he wins the bet =(
ShoeMoney:
The thought occurred to me that I'm helping to build his community. Heh.
Hopefully they're not actually joining just to win a Zune...
Nah, nobody's joining to win a Zune. LoL. If he wanted people to join for the contest, he'd have given away an iPod. :p
If you're seriously trying to bring attention to spamming on MBL, I think you're falling flat.
It's really not clear what policy he's violating. Maybe it's illegal to mention Zune? or, is it against the rules to ask people to join your community at MBL?
There are multitudes of more glaring examples of abuse. Just look at the comments that any user gets. Not as bad as Myspace, for sure, but along the same lines.
Plus, look at the number of fake users being setup, just to get a link to their latest MFA website.
Lots of better examples to point out.
What MBL needs really is a method of combating spam that will scale. I checked the other day, and the report a spam feature for comments just opens up my email. Yuk. I was just thinking 'you've gotta be kidding' as I closed the email without bothering.
Surely you can do better.
and yea, I was joking about the link bait thing, I just love the irony.
I don't see Andy's marketing tactic as all that different from the thousands of others who use their company name as their handles. The intention / vision of an application and the actual use of it aren't going to be the same and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
I think it's important for everyone to know that Scott Rafer of MyBlogLog gave his blessing for the promotion.
*grabbing popcorn* this is good to read, much better than my stories.
Jeremy get a grip.... all you need is a little more of an inflamatory headline and you would have a perfect example of link bait.....
Peter:
I don't think he's violating any policy at all. That doesn't mean I have to like it, though...
What if 10% of the blogs on MyBlogLog did something similar? Or 20%? Or 30%? At what point does it feel like you're navigating a lot of self-promotional ads and contests instead of getting to know site owners and readers?
Andy:
Thanks for noting that. It helps to reiterate the fact that this isn't some sort of poilcy issue, since that's what some people seem to be making it into.
It's about me seeing that and saying "WTF?! That's not a site screenshot. That's an advertisement." and feeling like someone is trying to take advantage of things.
It's an advertisement? Ok, let's stick with your logic, what exactly is it "advertising" Jeremy? It's advertising that if you join MyBlogLog, you may win a Zune. Do you know how many people I have introduced to MBL because of that contest?
MBL allows you to upload an image you wish - it doesn't have to be a screenshot - if they don't won't you to do it, why offer the feature?
And where exactly does it say that the image is a screenshot? It's a site avatar.
Just because I'm helping MBL and myself with some marketing, and it happens to not be what you would have done, doesn't give you the right to suggest I am a spammer. And why the heck didn't you email me first?
Now you just have egg on your face.
Peter:
Yeah, I made the same joke about the Zune vs. iPod in my emial to Andy.
I'm sure there are better examples, but I figure that if I'm going to pick on someone, I ought to pick on someone I've at least met before.
It's not like I was out trolling for spam.
Andy:
I tend to attract egg from time to time. This probably won't be the last time either...
Jeremy --
You are talking about one of the most contentious parts of MyBlogLog's service. I'm glad that you've put your thoughts out there and started the conversation with Andy because it should be MyBlogLog's members (in which I count you and I) who decide what's acceptable.
I don't find the promotion of a contest in the screenshot field annoying, but boy do I get torqued about people who make strangers contacts in the hopes of generating traffic. Horses for courses.
Unless it really is just a link bait, I guess I'm not really seeing your point in this post. I assume that out of everyone with a Internet connection, you're the best positioned to influence policy on MBL (other than the founders of course). So, why resort to a public flogging? Not that I feel Andy needs anyone to stick up for him, I heckle him on his blog too. ;)
Peter:
It's simple, really. I saw soemthing that bothered me and pointed it out in place where intersted parties can discuss it if they have opinions. That's happening and I've not deleted any comments on this post--everyone has been on topic.
I'm not sure that my thoughts are even close to what other people may be thinking about it, so this discussion is quite helpful in figuring that out.
As far as influencing the policy, sure. If someting comes out of this that I think it important enough to get written down, I'll certainly lobby for that. But that's really getting ahead of things. For all I know, my sense of what people on MyBlogLog expect (or accept) is vastly different than my own.
Ed said "I don't see Andy's marketing tactic as all that different from the thousands of others who use their company name as their handles."
Ed, that's unsound logic. It would be the case if Fortune 500 companies were called "Buy Windows Vista" or "The Chevy Metro Rocks". They're not.
Ultimately, I think what Andy's done is pretty crass. It needn't be a policy question--it's a question of good taste. I don't know if MyBlogLog enables this functionality, but I should be able to block specific users from being displayed on my site.
For bonus points, when I'm setting up a profile, I ought to be able to check a box that says "My Avatar is Garishly Commercial", so that users can blacklist those in one fell swoop.
Darren, to clarify. My avatar is my own face. If I visit your site, and you have the widget installed, you only see my face.
The only time you see the "Win a Zune" image, is if you come and visit my community page. That's hardly ramming it down anyone's throught and certainly not spam.
That would be the equivalent of you visiting a nigerian prince's site and complaining about the offer you found. :-)
PS. You can block any avatar from showing on the widget.
Andy:
That's not quite true. By profile surfing, people will see that image on the profiles of peopole who've joined your community (presumably to win a Zune).
For example:
As a user of Mybloglog the fact that Andy is giving away a Zune has not effected me one bit. Why should it?
It's just a bit of fun, in fact before today no one has said anything negative about it.
Obviously someone doesn't know the difference between spam and simple a promotion.
Come on Jeremy, was this linkbait?
You know linkbait is a type of spam too... ;)
So Jeremy, a MBL user joins my community, had no problem showing that image, but you take offense at it.
You're clutching at straws here dude. Why in the world you won't just admit that you took your own dislike of a marketing contest and blew it out of proportion.
Suggesting I'm a spammer is not cool.
BTW, what happened to the Text Link Ads banner you were running below this post?
I thought you were using your clout with Yahoo, and this linkbait, to make some spare money. Did you get an attack of the hypocrisies? ;-)
This sounds and looks alot like a vast percentage of yahoo profile pages. No real info. Lots of links. Lots of ads.
I hate to see community sites get messed up with all that crap.
As a person who has been building them for many years, so many people forget the plight of the developers who have to (try to) deal with it. It takes the fun out of it ;)
Andy:
That's right. In the same way that I'm botherd by people who post primarily screenshots on Flickr or irrelevant stuff on craigslist.
The contest isn't what bothers me. But saying that isn't going to make you believe that, I can tell already.
What bothers me is thikning about how MyBlogLog will feel if this practice starts to grow. I've been bured in the past when on-line communities hit a tipping point with respect to commercial interests and/or an influx of users who had differing expeectation of what's appropriate. So now when I see those thins happen, I extrapolate and decide if I should be worried or not.
Some of that should have been clear from my earlier comment:
http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/008467.html#comment-33967
I guess neither of us are cool today.
BTW, in response to an earlier comment, if you look at the site profile edit page, you'll see that it's clearly labeled as a screenshot, not an avatar. (I just had a look myself.)
The only TLA banners that have run here are the result of AdSense placing them.
I ran actual text link ads for a month and then pulled them:
http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/006047.html
And there was a graphical TLA ad, but that was in the sidebar for a month. The stuff below the post bodies is typically contextual ads from AdSense or YPN.
If I thought that SEO related linkbait could actually make me money, I'd be doing it more often! :-)
>you'll see that it's clearly labeled as a screenshot
so put up a single page with that image take a picture of it and we're good to go then?
Are you suggesting that Andy change his site to contain a really larger version of that image?!
Now that would be amusing...
I'm done commenting.
You're trying to divert the attention away from the lame way you decided to suggest I was spamming; and chose to post on your blog as opposed to emailing me.
Take a look around the blogosphere Jeremy, I don't see too many people that share your sentiment.
I hope for Eric and Scott's sake, you won't be the one driving the growth of MBL, otherwise you'll turn it into a sterile, lifeless environment that no blogger will care about.
After which you can rename it Jeremy's Stepford Blog Log.
Hypothetically speaking if he was to post that image on his site as a single post would that put an end to the issue?
Andy:
I don't think Eric or Scott are that insane. There's a reason (well many, I'm sure) that I'm not a product manager: I have more fun with technology. It's their product, not mine.
I'm not sure where the diversion is. You've made you case clearly and I've done nothing to try and stop you from doing so on my site. But that's okay, I don't need to understand. It's clear that we're unlikely to agree on this anyway.
Now I've gotta go figure out who Jeremy Stepford is...
graywolf:
I suspect not. But let's try it and see... :-)
Andy: Whoops, I misunderstood, I thought you were essentially using MyBlogLog to advertise your contest on other people's site. My bad, and I apologize.
As for promoting the contest from your profile, that's much murkier and a finer point. At worst, I think you could be described as mercantile.
Darren said: "Ed, that's unsound logic. It would be the case if Fortune 500 companies were called "Buy Windows Vista" or "The Chevy Metro Rocks". They're not."
Darren, he's what I was referring to: A quick scan of Andy's MBL friends shows "people" named, SEMBasics, toprankblog, atlanta_SEO, TricksterSEO, and SEOcrtique. I assume those aren't the blogger's given names.
That commercializes things as well. Personally, I don't have a problem with that.
Andy, it sounds like Jeremy is not likely to win the free Zune?
*not related to the debate, but to MyBlogLog*
For the people who mentioned that the MyBlogLog widget is too slow:
MBL has an image-only hack for Wordpress.com blogs, but you can use it with any blogging service.
>I assume those aren't the blogger's given names.
I thought one of the core principles of internet safety was not to give out your full name to people you don't know, did we change that or are we only applying it when it's convenient?
Ed: This is a pretty minor point in an already spent nerd fight, but I don't think we should equate a handle with an profile image. Andy's handle is 'Marketing Pilgrim'. His profile image was the much-debated 'Win a Zune' ad.
Maybe you're referring to the former, but the main point of debate in this thread seems to be the latter. That's what I was referring to when I made the Fortune 500 comparison as well.
If there's one lesson for MyBlogLog out of this, it's that people (myself included) have an incomplete or inaccurate understanding of how their profile system works.
My 2 cents. Andy's "profile" pic of choice has not actually attracted my attention on MBL. His lure is boring compared to the busty blondes and lusty redhead profile pics found in abundance on the site. No complaining here!
It's broadened my appreciation of the blogosphere! ;-)
Sorry that I'm late to the party.
Jeremy's being asked to make sure that we're in position to grow by 100x and 1000x smoothly without letting you all down. I bet he can. The reason we've been slow lately is that he's not had the flexibility to really take over yet. The majority of what he'll do for us is in the area of technical scaling, not features. However Jeremy's seen more little sites grow up than Eric and I have, and I'm sure he's pretty good at spotting patterns by now.
Eric and I are of the school that our members should be able to do whatever they want to their own data, as long as it doesn't hurt or offend others. I don't think that the Zune promotion is spam, and I'm personally thrilled when people get more creative than using the screenshot default. JohnS and I do it all the time on our sites. [Please note that I did not use my blog's URL on the comment form here either as Jeremy requested, rebel that I am :) ] I hope that people play, learn, and teach us.
One of those people who will play, learn, and teach us is Jeremy. He happens to be a very long-term Yahoo! with a deservedly well-read blog. That means we'll listen respectfully to everything he says and then decide what to do.
I hope Jeremy and everyone else feels the same way.
Scott - I think you may have managed to soothe Andy and suck up to Jeremy at the same time. Good work and rock on MyBlogLog - it's a great concept.
I think Jeremy is suffering from Matt Cutts envy. He just wanted the attention and knows that controversy is a good way to get it. I mean obviously this guy (whom I've never heard of before reading Andy's blog) is an ego maniac. Just look at what he chose to combat spam.... "say my name, say my name!"
Matt Cutts envy?!
I need to mkae t-shirt. "I have Matt Cutts envy. :-("
I bet I could sell a few of those. :-)
I'm sorry, but I really can't see how that was spam.
>I need to make t-shirt. "I have Matt Cutts envy. :-(" I bet I could sell a few of those. :-)
I bet you'd do really well if you took a pic of you wearing it and posted it on MBL ;-)
I'd do even better with some hot chick wearing it. :-)
I'll take a doz of those t-shirts in size XL, okay maybe XXL.
Here's hoping Jeremy calls me a spammer tomorrow. I have the perfect response, it was taught to me by the King of Comeback.
"Oh yeah? Well you're just a big doody head". King of Comeback is my 5 year old.
It's good to know that some things (the amusements of a 5 year old) never change...
>I need to make t-shirt. "I have Matt Cutts envy. ..."
Um, are you implying that Matt Cutts is a....? =)
Jeremy,
Your a good man for changing the post title and apologizing.
Spam is four letter word that nobody wants to be associated with. We should save that word for those who really deserve it.
damn. pissed i missed the blow by blow on this one. and rafer kissing butt on both sides? guess the ink is still drying on the dealio ;)
(full disclosure: i was peripherally involved the last time jeremy changed a post headline after blog-smacking a PR firm around, so i'm quite happy to be in the cheap seats this time)
btw, as for high-profile geek t-shirt pix, i think i'm still winning that race:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/web20/interesting/
last but not least, i'm coining the phrase right now:
*advatarising*
(c) dave mcclure, 2007, all rights reserved
Dave:
Ha! I have one of those shirts and wear it often. But sadly, there are no pictures. And especially not with any of the Google founders. (Am I even allowed near them?)
Fun when 90 zillion people read your blog huh =P. So much for having a place you can vent.
@DaveM -- the domain is available. You could easily pull off a million-pixel web site sort of deal with that one. enjoy.
Jeremy,
1) Everyone overreacts at times.
2) Not everyone is strong enough to admit it, let alone in public. Kudos bro. :D
-Michael
I got Little late to this story.
I was also bit astonished to see how Andy was trying to bribe his visitors, and not through the quality of his blog(indeed he has a good blog). A good blogger knows the importance of blog is with the percentage of repeat visitors it can get. A gift to regular visitors, would have increased his readership, but a lure even before a person vists a blog?
Even if bribing is good some times, in this case it's at the wrong place.
I have done a review on this story, quite time back in blog,
"MyBlogLog and Quest for building Community". You can get to the story at " http://blogandpingtutorial.blogspot.com/2007/01/mybloglog-and-quest-for-building.html "
Divya Uttam
I'm also late to this blog post, but bear in mind that Andy had this up for quite awhile (January 4th was when he announced it on his blog). That appears to have been before the acquisition by Yahoo. If anything, Andy was driving traffic to a new social community that obviously had a lot of potential and Yahoo acted upon it.
Oops, Andy's blog announcement is here - http://www.marketingpilgrim.com/2007/01/a-free-microsoft-zune-to-one-lucky-mybloglog-community-member.html
interesting read. creatively capitalizing on freedom of use vs influencing standards of conduct via social pressure.
it's still a new game, played in the grey. competing approaches and views within the community of participants is the driver of evolution tho, eh? we all stake our claims for the better or worse of our positions and things adapt accordingly with time. as long as there's no censorship or manipulation it's all good (thx J). useful debate. admirable of folks to argue publicly. imo everyone's right.
RE:Jeremy Zawodny said:
I'd do even better with some hot chick wearing it. :-)
Ha! So you're a spammer at heart, too! :-)
On a serious note, the apologies bit was really cool - I take my hat off.
Now, when I logged into mybloglog today what did I see in the first place but people changing their blog avatars to display hot chicks and stuff - hilarious lol, what an effect of this whole story :-)
I don't think you had a reason to apologize. If I opened my email and saw a title "Win a Zune" I'd say it was junk mail and throw it out.
The purpose isn't to get people excited and join a blogsocial, it is a pissing contest between two jabronis trying to beef up their blog-hand.
First reactions are usually the right reaction. Solid writing and word of mouth bring on a blog community - not a mp3 player.
Wow.. I never read 200 comments about a post before but this was fun! Thanks guys =)
Would someone be kind enough to tell me what a Zune is, or do I really need to go through all the comments to find out?
