Do you ever really think about how we decide to do what we do?

I don't mean choosing between the low-carb and regular bagel. I mean the bigger things in life--the ones that are supposed to matter: careers, where to live, hobbies, who do date, etc.

I've been thinking about that quite a bit recently. In fact, I suspect I've been thinking about it more than I realize and for a much longer time, but that's really not the point--if there is a point at all.

If my own life is any example, I think that we make those decisions in a manner that's rather different than the way we describe doing it to those who might ask. Many times when I've made those kinds of decisions, I didn't really weigh the pros and cons or consider the impact to this and that. I just waited a while, thought about it off and on, maybe collected a bit more info (or not) and then... just knew. If you'd asked me to explain it, I'd just make up something that sounds sane and normal. But in reality it's a process I don't really understand. And for the most part that's okay because I've been pretty happy with my decisions so far.

I suspect that motivation has a lot to do with it. I also think that if my own life is any guide, we're not very good at figuring out (or at least thinking about) our own motivations for the decisions we make. Sometimes they're hard to see because you need to look at patterns--patterns in your own life that repeat over long periods of time and in slightly different ways. And we're just not as good at long term self-analysis as we think we are.

As an example, I remember in college thinking how funny it was that I knew people who switched their major. And many of them did it more than once. I just couldn't imagine not knowing what you wanted to do!

For me it was always obvious. There was no question. I always liked computers and wanted to work with computers for a living--ever since I got my hands on one. (In retrospect, that was a lot less specific that I thought at the time because computers are everywhere now.) But if you asked me why, I didn't really know. I just knew.

Over time and with the help of a couple very insightful friends, I've come to realize that certain things are true about me--or more specifically are what matter to me more than whether or not I'm working with computers everyday. Not only did it take a long time to realize and understand that, it took a long time to accept and admit it.

So what does matter or motivate me?

It's hard to describe, but when I try these are the ideas that come to mind:

  • being a part of something I believe is important--something that matters to me (yes, I know that's a bit of circular logic)
  • working with (or being around) smart and interesting people who also care about those things

When I see a good chance to do some or all of those things, I'd like to think that I'll take that chance most of the time.

Then again, if my own life is not a good example, this is all about me. And you're wondering what kind of a freak I am. It wouldn't be the first time. :-)

Anyway, what are those "things" I speak of? As far as I can tell, they're something in this jumble:

  • connections and relationships
  • new connections
  • ideas, big and small
  • change
  • seeing changes as the result of the connections among people and ideas
  • influencing or helping that change in even a small way to make things better

Learning a lot about computers, programming, and networking provided me with ideas and connections. It's about taking ideas and turning them into concrete processes and then improving them even more. And then there's writing, which I've done in the form of a monthly magazine column and a book. And when you combine writing in a semi-public way with computers and networking... The online world provides even more connections, and thanks to e-mail and weblogs, relationships and a way of influencing that change. Not to mention ideas.

Looking at it that way makes a lot more sense all of the sudden.

How does flying, one of my other passions, fit into this? I don't know. I do know that it's a heck of a challenge, a lot of fun, and helps me to meet some very cool people. And it also forces me to think about the world in a very different way--constantly re-evaluating the situation I'm in.

Hmm. Put that way, maybe it does fit in better than I thought...

What got me thinking about this again and writing about it today? I blame a combination of recent events and watching 4 episodes of The West Wing (all praise Netflix) in one night.

More on those recent events when the time is right. I'm still digesting some of them.

The mere act of writing this up has helped to clarify my thinking (or lack of thinking) quite a bit. As for clicking the "post" button... why not?

Posted by jzawodn at July 15, 2004 01:54 AM

Reader Comments
# Dirk said:

> How We Decide To Do What We Do

Once a colleague of mine, who was deep into neuro science, told me about an experiment, where they tried to track down the brain areas that triggered decisions.

It startled me, because what they could prove (in the confinements of their experiment of course) was that your decisions seem NOT to be made by your conscious part ...

I know that probably most experiments or statistics are somewhat misleading (you only see what you want to see), but when I look at how I make decisions I come to a similar result. All my rationalizing is for defending what I already decided in my guts.

on July 15, 2004 02:43 AM
# justin said:

"your decisions seem NOT to be made by your conscious part"

if you've ever watched Derren Brown, you'll realise just how true that is.

on July 15, 2004 03:13 AM
# Tina said:

I re-read the post a few times, to try to understand how I make my own decisions..but the more I think about it, the more I realize that I have pretty much always let fate decide my course in life.

Especially the last 5 years or so. Everything that I've been through, everything chronicled on my blog, all started from one spur of the moment decision from Christmas of 1999. Sparked by a visit to an aunt's house.

The last 5 years have been the most memorable of my life, and if I had not left myself open to chance, none of it would have happened.

So I never really make any active decisions. I just go with the flow and hope for the best. :)

Ain't life funny. ;)

on July 15, 2004 03:53 AM
# Jim said:

Interesting issue. For me, the decision of what to do was not so obvious. Eventually, after going to school for English Lit., the ultimate indecisive's major, and working as a waiter, among other things, I decided to persue computer work because it seemed relatively interesting and because I knew I had to do something.

Five years later, I know I've made the right choice, and I think this observation is universalizable: I've made the right choice because what I do for work is almost exactly what I do if I have a day off with nothing planned. For anyone who's not sure what to do, this is a good rule. Do whatever you do when you have a day off with nothing to do.

on July 15, 2004 06:10 AM
# Adina Levin said:

There's a fabulous book by Gary Klein, called Sources of Power: How People Make Decisions.

He studies how experienced firefighters and ER nurses make life and death decisions. The process is different than experts thought. People visualize the situation in their mind, run a mental movie, and go with the first scenario that works. Only novices weigh pros and cons.

The work was about urgent decisions, not slower, life-direction decisions.

At least in my experience, imagination plays a key role there. A decision isn't a "decision" between contrasts -- it's seeing a future situation that I want to be in.

on July 15, 2004 07:28 AM
# Larry said:

I don't care for the West (left) Wing - wwaaaayyy too liberal.

on July 15, 2004 11:42 AM
# Mack said:

Ok I'll bite,
Interesting question. Most people I have met have NEVER even considered this question before.

In my estimation decision making is part of finding and completing a pattern.

For example, have you ever seen the Robin Williams(RW) movie Awakenings?
There is one particular scene from the movie that has stuck with me.
It is the one in which RW, a doctor, is standing in the mental ward observing a patient in the middle of the ward that can't seem to make it to a window to look outside. RW initial deduction is that the chairs and tables are the "things" blocking the patients way. However upon future investigation. RW notices that the room has a black and white checked tile floor pattern. The reason the patient can't seem to get past a certain point in the room is because the pattern stops six feet from the window. When RW creates black & white checked paper and completes the pattern the patient is then, and only then, able to finish the last few steps to the window and finally see the outside world she was longing for. There was a desire and a goal but no pattern.

Just like there are barriers to entry in business, there are also natural barriers to completing any goal in life. That barrier may simply be decision.
I believe from my own personal experience that it is not until the mind completes the pattern, that it will allow the act of coordinating ALL of your mind's faculties to a given end. It is at this point that "decision" will occur. A decision to act or not.

Ultimately if you do decide to act, then you take action and keep on taking action until the belief that you can achieve your goal becomes so ordinary that it becomes habit. And aren't we all creatures of habit?

The items that make up the pattern can be anything: time, money, knowledge, a mentor, or a job opportunity or in this case floor tiles.
If one is missing then action most likely will slow or stop completely.

What is missing in one of the things you have been putting off? Find that - and you will find decision and ultimately action

My 2cents & my first post

And if you didn't see the movie, then rent it and you will know what I mean.

on July 15, 2004 11:44 AM
# Aristotle Pagaltzis said:

It has been scientifically proven that intellect is a function of emotion, not at all separate, much less separately operational. It shouldn't be surprising that decisions are mostly an issue of gut feeling.

My decisions are generally a matter of trying to fathom the options, possible developments and outcomes, and then picking the one that for some reason seems satisfying. This is not a process of weighing pros and cons, in case it sounds that way. It's imagination at work, not ratio.

Finding reasons for why I made that choice over others is mostly an afterthought to justify the decision to myself and possibly to others. A lot of the time, many of these reasons will, of course, be obvious. But not all of them, and particularly not the importance of all of them, always is. Your subconscious can be pretty convincing in directing your conscious' attention.

on July 15, 2004 01:02 PM
# Morgan Schweers said:

Heh. I did a double-take when I saw the subject... It's a topic I've come back to repeatedly throughout my life, with one particular shareable moment sticking out. I was talking about decisions making during a long road trip, and said, thoughtfully, "Sometimes I think I'm too introspective."

The driver nearly had to pull over, he was laughing so hard, and I didn't even get what I'd said for a few seconds (thereby disproving my question, clearly). :)

Seriously though, I also do things similar to how you described. I actually find that in both software development and life, decisions and even designs, are substantially aided by letting them simmer without directly thinking about them. Eventually a moment will come, without forcing, that the 'aha!' strikes, and the core of the answer will be there. Not the whole answer, but the piece that the whole answer grows out of.

How did that core get there, what process built it out of my awareness? No idea, really, except that it's usually built off of something that I've already done, that in retrospect seems like I somehow knew well in advance. Perhaps backfilled, the decision is to fit what I've already done, but more often it really seems what I've already done is a prequel to the 'best answer'.

Of course some life choices are easier. Since I was ten, I couldn't imagine doing anything but programming for the rest of my life. Lucky me, I found I could make a living at it, so I had a central focus to build my life around.

So I guess I don't have any more answers (I doubt any of us do), but at least there are some ideas on how to use the process to work for us.

Of course every time that process works, it reinforces my belief that it's okay to be lazy, as long as the laziness comes to something.

-- Morgan

on July 15, 2004 01:10 PM
# Aristotle Pagaltzis said:

Laziness is a virtue!

on July 15, 2004 01:35 PM
# Morgan Schweers said:

Slightly offtopic from the OP, but directed laziness is DEFINITELY a virtue, at least for developers. It's laziness that makes us write code that we can reuse cleanly.

Note that I do say 'directed laziness'. It's the undirected lazy who copy-and-paste, not realizing they're making MORE work for themselves later when they need to make changes to all those blocks of code, for instance.

With that caveat, definitely All Hail Laziness.

-- Morgan

on July 15, 2004 01:56 PM
# Larry said:

"We will encourage you to develop the three great virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience, and hubris."

-- Larry Wall, Programming Perl (1st edition), O'Reilly & Associates

on July 15, 2004 01:57 PM
# Mack said:

RE: Decisions & Laziness
Why then do some peoples lives flourish & some fade over time?
Bad decisions or laziness?

on July 16, 2004 06:53 AM
# Tom Dierickx said:

I really enjoyed the post (as well as everybody's insighftul comments) and am glad you did hit "post".

Here's my take: whether you believe decisions are purely physically-based (i.e. the neuroscience experiment referenced) or non physical (i.e. mind and brain are separate, as I believe, since science has not been successful in finding the source of consciousness), it surely boils down to we all make some sort of internal probabilistic calculation as to whether our decision will ultimately supply us with more pleasure than it does pain. And it definitely has to do with "patterns" because we search for patterns in everything (even when one doesn't exist). The more data points we have in the form of past personal experience and/or collected facts coupled with how well this collection of points maps to some existing model (aka, our beliefs), the "easier" or more "confident" we are in our decision. If all the dots connect for us than we have a strong conviction. Countless "unconscious" decisions are made rapidly everyday because we hold such a high conviction, such as crossing the street, etc. But, if the dots don't connect to any pattern we believe (or we don't have alot of points in the first place; that is, little experience and/or few facts to go on), then we may feel helpless, frustrated, and easily influenced by others.

Also, there's emotion attached to every experience and/or fact. Very emotional events are given much more "weight". Facts without experience (like I know what Rome looks like but I've never been there or my friend told me they saw such and such) are still stamped with some level of confidence with respect to their truthfulness, but only personal experiences get stamped with 100% truth (i.e. seeing is believing) - even if we're really wrong.

So, ultimately, why do some people make "good" decisions and others "poor"? In simple terms, the old adage "garbage in, garbage out" probably applies. The person either has too little experience, too little knowledge, places too much weight on one past event or another, not enough on other events, etc. to be able to accurately predict the outcome. Everyone knows people who can't make up their mind about something and what do they do? They ask other people what they should do. But these people have their own baggage and bias. So, the person walks away even more confused about what to do because they keep receiving conflicting information.

Futhermore, most of our actions that result after our decison has been made depend on other humans (with their own internal data) and we might not have seen those person(s) act a certain way in a given situation enough times. If you stop to think about the infinitude of possible interactions in the universe, it's amazing we ever make good decisions.

Finally, I would add "big decisions" are sometimes easier because they rarely go totally wrong. A current situation or where we're at today may seem different than we envisioned it would x years ago, but usually for the better as well as the worse because good things also have fallen into place for us we couldn't forsee.

And, really finally, where do the "models" (or beliefs) we use to project our data points onto to come from? I believe we're all born with some (aka, our firmware) and others we're convinced beyond belief that forces an upgrade to our firmware. I'm like Morgan, I've just known since I was 10 that computer programming was for me. And in my case it's always been data-focused (as opposed to application development focused). But, the more we lean one way, the less we can be in other areas of our life. Afterall, we're finite creatures. For example, just ask my wife if she thinks I have any common sense for many normal everyday things! :-)


on July 16, 2004 10:03 AM
# Tom Dierickx said:

Re: laziness

I think the true mentality of a programmer is more one of an itch for effeciency and stability more so than "laziness" in the physical sense. True, most programmers want to automate everything they can but not so they can sit back on the couch and do nothing, but rather so they might be "free" to explore new challenges.

on July 16, 2004 10:09 AM
# Mack said:

Re: Firmware - (I believe we're all born with some)

Does the subconscious play a part - I say yes! Emotional words or mental pictures do too, I believe emotion may be a catalysts to action but not the sole reason "why" we make a decision. Haven't you seen someone so mad that they can't think straight?
Experience can also help us to make a better decision but it is not the answer as to "why" we do.

Maybe the determining factor in making a decision is risk or maybe economics?....

As you know, everything has an opportunity cost. When you pick X you are also not choosing Y & Z. The cost of picking X, is Y & Z. It is just like buying an ice cream at Baskin-Robbins. There are 30 flavors leftover after you make your selection.
But "HOW" did you know mint chocolate chip was the right one for you?
It doesn't make sense to me....
Look at all the people that decided to go to college and then never use their degree.
Look at all the workers that decided to go to work and hate their job and continue to go
Look at all the employees that dislike their co-workers or boss and decide to still interact with them.
Look at all the mates that decide to stay in bad relationships even when they know it's unhealthy.
I guess that goes for study, exercise, drinking, smoking, drugs, overeating - just about anything.
Energy being the cost, and the positive or negative activity the result. But what is the deciding factor? (Laziness being a aspect of energy or the lack there of)

Maybe it is focus. I read somewhere that "We naturally move toward whatever we focus our attention on."

As you may have already guessed, I do not know what it is in life that I am after. I.T. may be my vehicle but I know for sure it is not the destination.
I think you all are really blessed that you "just know" or knew - especially at such a young age.

I guess I will have to pick up the book that Adina mentioned

on July 16, 2004 11:34 AM
# Tom said:

> When you pick X you are also not choosing Y & Z

I agree 100%. This is kind of what I was elluding to when we perform the probability calculations inside our heads - sometimes so fast and familar that many seem uncounscious.

The problem is we don't always see Y & Z, or they're so "outdated" they don't carry as much weight (which is why the "now" influences us so much).

> But "HOW" did you know mint chocolate chip was the right one for you?

Everything we believe has a confidence attached to it between 0% and 100%. Enough past "successes" (or witnessed successes by others) increase this confidence. At an early age I had enough enjoyable positive experiences relative to negative ones in the area of computers, I knew it was something for me. But this plenty of others areas in my life, I'm not as wise or confident about.

on July 16, 2004 12:53 PM
# Allen Wang said:

RE: Decide on what to do

Jeremy, this is my very first blog entry. And I am glad that I am entering the very first one on your blog. As you know, I have enjoyed your post and the thread tremendously. Reflecting on my personal choices made in life and career, I would have to say that in hindsight, all my "good" decisions were made with a sense of risk, based on intuition, in a direction that I am passionate about. The safest bet in my view is a move that ignires one's passion, but stretches one's imagination and comfort zone:-)

on July 18, 2004 12:22 AM
# Mack said:

OK everybody I need some more details...Please forgive my direct line of questioning - But I REALLY want to know!!

>"But there is plenty of others areas in my life, I'm not as wise or confident about."

How many people do you know that "dabble" in something and never really master it? ie playing an instrument, learning a foreign language, being a good speller, a math wiz or whatever. Just because you "decide" doesn't mean you are equipped to be good at it let alone be great at it. Not to mention that "it" will pay the bills

>Passionate about
Being passionate about something can, like Tom stated, can bring about pleasure OR pain!
Because you are passionate about something doesn't mean you have made the right decision - Many times people make the wrong decision in the heat of passion. or did I miss the meaning of your message?

>"Eventually a moment will come"
A moment of clarity or deadline?

>Your subconscious can be pretty convincing in directing your conscious' attention.

Are you saying follow your heart? (subconscious)over your logic(mind) or use them together?

>>"Imagination" - it's seeing a future situation that I want to be in.

Aren't the majority of decisions we make in our life of the urgent nature? Are you saying imagine a choice or an ideal?
Lance Armstrong talks in his book about "Exhausting the possibility" At what point does a future imagined situation become just a day dream?

>"just go with the flow and hope for the best"

Doesn't that mean you "settle" for a result rather than make a choice/decision?

>"Do whatever you do when you have a day off with nothing to do."

Are you implying that the money will follow? or that you will find what you like to do? or both?
The reason I ask is because I have started voraciously devouring a variety of related books from my local library. However my results have been mixed with some of the books being good, and some turning out to be really bad.
It was some what of a surprise to me, after digesting the content of those 100 books that "most" people just make up their success as they go.
My common sense tells me that there has to be an easier way. I think life is just like cooking. There must be a recipe that I can follow. It's the old theory of "standing on the shoulders of giants" concept in order move ahead. This "giants" concept started me on a journey to delve deeper into what it is that I do everyday in I.T. and what my ultimate goals in life should be.

I believe making a decision is more emotionally challenging than intellectually difficult & requires discipline AND energy. - Zig Ziglar in one of his books talks about being a "meaningful specific." vs being a wandering generality. The act of deciding makes you a meaningful specific. That is what I am after.

on July 19, 2004 12:38 PM
# Tom said:

How many people do you know that "dabble" in something and never really master it? ie playing an instrument, learning a foreign language, being a good speller, a math wiz or whatever. Just because you "decide" doesn't mean you are equipped to be good at it let alone be great at it. Not to mention that "it" will pay the bills

You're 100% correct. Deciding to do something *never* guarantees success - nothing is guaranteed. But, I think you're equating a decision with a long-term outcome. This isn't fair because long-term outcomes are the accumulation of countless short term decisions made along the way.

...that "most" people just make up their success as they go...

I agree; because "success" is the result of persistance, talent, luck, countless people helping us along the way, and, again, an infinitude of smaller decisions along the way. Just because somebody "decides" they want to be good at something on day 1 doesn't mean they won't decide on day 11 or day 37 or days 2-365 that they don't "feel like" working at it that day(s). Perhaps, the "thing" is harder or they're not as good at it or it's not as fun as they thought it would be back from day 1's perspective.

The act of deciding makes you a meaningful specific. That is what I am after.

I'm completely opposite. I've NEVER been a person who has "goals" for where I'll be in 5 years or what I want to accomplish by age X. I know I love computers and math/stats and my wife&kids. As long as I stay "tuned in" to these things I don't care what I do or where it's done at because I know I'll be happy, so I guess this makes me a "a wandering generality"-type of person. Having said this, there was a time in my late teens / early 20's when I wasn't so "content". Doing some part-time construction work in the summers and also being in the Army Reserves, I hated both completely. It wasn't "me". Economics limited me from being able to be able to even "decide" between many options. But, I worked on what I loved to do (computers) and eventually it paid off. I couldn't tell you how many 3am nights I've had trying to learn something new or programming something "just for fun", but it's this kind of effort that pays off (usually) no matter what your "chosen" field. But, even so, there's a lot of luck. I could never pretend to know the secret to anybody's happiness for them - only my own.

on July 20, 2004 07:24 PM
# said:

>I think you're equating a decision with a long-term outcome.
This isn't fair because long-term outcomes are the accumulation of countless short term decisions made along the way.
Tom - Thanks for your reply!!! I agree. - An old Chinese proverb states every journey starts with the first step.

Forgive me, but I MUST ask: What I don't understand is "how" or "why" someone "DECIDES" to take that first step or pick one path and not another? - Is it "just" because it is less traveled?" Is it just because dad was a lawyer or mom was a doctor? - The path of least resistance.

To quote Thoreau, "The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." In modern terms, Anthony Robbins calls this having "impotent goals"

As an employee, I have noticed that every employer will gladly continue to keep you underemployed if you are overqualified for what you do.
A number of scenes from the movie Office Space come to mind. (Which happens to be a very funny movie btw)

Let's say you do "decide" - a conscious choice.
Then how do you know if the bar has been set too low?
Don't get me wrong, I am not talking about money.
I am talking about making a contribution and "deciding" to make a difference, to find the meaning to what you do by deciding to use your God given talents.

In the past we all knew what we were going to do. There was no 'real' decision necessary. There were nature bench marks. School had semesters, classes had tests, sports had games, and musical interests had recitals.
Today a nutritionist will tell you how many calories to eat in a day. A trainer will tell you how many reps to do in a workout. At 36, and long out of college, I have found that there are no more bench marks to help you "decide." Show up for work, pay your taxes blah, blah, blah, blah.
So I went to the library to find some answers and found a couple of books on the topic
One being Good to Great
In it Jim Collins offers the following questions to help make a decision based on self assessment :
1. What am I(or what is the company) intrinsically passionate about?
2. What is the company\I good at? and does this "thing" come naturally?
3. Finally does this area that was chosen have "GREAT" potential?
This was useful but somewhat limited I thought

So I tried another book called Discover your Strengths,
Its premise states that you will find your greatest success and happiness by focusing on ONLY what you do best and forget everything else.
Examples being :
Carnegie only did steel consolidation
Rockefeller only did oil consolidation
Morgan only did banking
Buffet only does investing (mostly in insurance companies)
Gates only does computer consolidation & acquisition
Mary Kay did cosmetics
Tiger does golf
Jordan did basketball
Armstrong does bike racing
The William sisters do tennis
Picasso did painting
Beethoven did music
Emily Dickinson did poetry/writing

However I have to ask, did any of these individuals ever stop and ask themselves these questions "What am I good at".... - or did they "just know" they were great at what they did and never found it necessary to have to decide?

That brings to mind the movie Good Will Hunting.
The scene when Will confronts the professor that is mentoring him with the fact that he (Will) can't stand to sit there and watch the professor second guess what came naturally to him. Don't you know someone in your office who is wrong for their job. aka awful at what they do, lazy, stupid etc. They fail because they made the wrong choice or worse yet never "decided" to make a choice in the first place.

A Third Book is : Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill
It lists the 31 Of The Most Common Causes of Failure:

Look about half way down ->Lack of decision........
Heredity background
Lack of a well defined central purpose
Lack of ambition
Insufficient education(applied)=>What they do with what they know
Self discipline
Ill Health
Environmental influences in childhood
Lack of persistence
Negative personality
Lack of control
Uncontrolled desire for something for nothing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lack of well defined power of decision: Prompt decisions/ indecision

on July 21, 2004 07:40 AM
# Mack said:

Part 2 Conti...

6 Fears (in the book)
Wrong selection of a mate in a marriage
Over caution / satisfied with leftovers
Working with the wrong associates in business
Superstition and prejudice
Wrong selection of vocation
Lack of concentration
Indiscriminate spending
Lack of enthusiasm
Intolerance (religion political or race etc) stopped acquiring knowledge
Intemperance - Overindulgence
Inability to cooperate
Possession of power you didn't earn (inheritance)
Guessing instead of Thinking
Lack of capital

The Fourth Book I am looking at is What Color is Your Parachute. (not finished yet)
Ultimately, I guess I don't want to go to work today just because that is what I did yesterday and the day before!!
"Funny thing about these walls, first you hate them then you love 'em." (from the movie Shawshank Redemption)
You might say I am afraid of being institutionalized by continuing to "do" without "deciding"

I don't know if this is the type of discussion Jeremy had in mind when he hit POST but it just happen to be something I have been thinking A LOT about lately - pretty heavy stuff I know - I apologies in advance.

on July 21, 2004 07:46 AM
# Mack said:

"The definition of insanity is to continue to do what you are doing and expect a different result."

on July 21, 2004 07:48 AM
# Greg Eden said:

Can I recommend two (on topic) books by physicist David Bohm

'Thought As A System'


'On Dialogue'.

They will blow your mind clean away :)

on July 21, 2004 09:53 AM
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