In all the discussion of Orkut I've seen so far, most folks are busy comparing Orkut to every other social networking web site around, typically they mention Friendster ("it's so much faster!"), but as we all know these sites are a dime a dozen these days. At least it seems that way.
What surprises me is that nobody has looked at it the other way around: What problems might Orkut solve that Google would otherwise find significantly more challenging?
Those that do seem to speculate about "applying your social network to search" and other exotic stuff, but I'm thinking of something far more basic than that: users.
That's right, users.
Now, I know what you're thinking. "Google has millions of users!" Of course they do. How much do they really know about those users? Do they really have a user database from which they can mine interesting data? If they have one, it must pale in comparison to what Yahoo, AOL, and MSN have.
Rather than try to convince users to start "registering" for Google, why not piggyback on one of the most viral fads going around: a social network application? And, for added effect, make it an invite only system so that you feel special once you're invited.
Just think about it for a few minutes. If you've been thru the Orkut registration process, you know that it attempts to collect a ton of data about you. The kind of demographic data that marketing folks drool over. And right now there are lots of folks dying to get that special invite and begin the sign-up process.
Still with me? Good.
Let's assume that Google internationalizes Orkut and lets it run to the point that it has millions of users registered and active. That's not an unreasonable thing to expect. Then, one day down the road, they quietly decide to "better integrate" Orkut with Google and start redirecting all Orkut requests to orkut.google.com.
Bingo!
Suddenly they're able to set a *.google.com cookie that contains a bit of identifying data (such as your Orkut id) and that would greatly enhance their ability to mine useful and profitable data from the combination of your profile and daily searches.
Of course, we know that the "big three" already do this sort of thing to some degree or another. But Google's lack of intimate knowledge of their users is surely holding them back from doing some of the things they'd love to do. Many folks think it's just a matter of time before they try to get "real" users signed up.
Could this be the start of that?
[As I've said before in case it's not abundantly clear, I don't speak for my employer on my weblog. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs some serious medication.]
Posted by jzawodn at January 29, 2004 03:55 PM
Jeremy,
Man! You just made a huge light bulb go off over my head... Right now, I wish I were selling advertising for one of these networks based on the behavior and self-supplied interest data that's available...
Huge motherlode of marketing data there that could be leveraged into some large ad contracts...
I agree, this is just more targeted data that Google can use to raise Adwords bids and improve targeting. Their geo-targeting feature is the first big step in this direction. But the question is will users go for being analyzed to this degree? --> Well, probably, we are quickly becoming a privacy-free nation. Reality shows and the like are making people used to the idea of being observed 24/7.
Also, I think that knowing about actual users is probably the next big step in improving search accuracy. The idea is that pagerank gave you a good sense of what _webmasters_ thought were the most relevant links for a given query; but knowing what other USERS think is even more valuable.
That's one thing. Another is the web-of-trust, which is why it's invitation only. From a user base combined with trust metrics you have quite a strong digital identity pool.
Will:
I don't buy that for a second. Why? Membership is for sale on eBay.
Looks like another step towards lock-in. Or maybe it has to do with the personalization Google might be looking for.
> If they have one, it must pale in comparison to what Yahoo, AOL, and MSN have.
They have the Google Toolbar. The number of installed instances is quite impressive.
If they wanted, they could exploit a lot of knowledge about users.
> Let's assume that Google internationalizes Orkut
Orkut is not Google. It was developed by a Google employer in his 20% spare time (they give that to their employers to boost their creativeness).
It does not belong to Google.
Yes, it does:
"Still, Google owns the technology developed by its employees [...]"
Or, then it can be that Google or nobody else has any clue what to do with social networking sites, and they are just experimenting :) Like I guess web sites started doing in the early days if the WWW.
You nailed it, Jeremy. Google wants at least as much data about its users as....Yahoo has ! Course, the service is down as much as it's up lately....
If giving google some demographic info about myself makes their services better, and keeps them in business, I'm all for it, so long as I don't get spammed.
why doesn't google use their links database to seed the social network database. For example they could use all the links from site A to B and from B to A (using only blogs.. (I assume they know by now what is a blog and whats not)) They take this blog data link database and can determine who your potential on-line friends are.. This could really breath some life into these services.
Google automates everything they can, and here I wonder if they're doing the same thing, but nothing as ambitious as orkut.google.com, instead what if they were just automating the referral process for people applying for jobs at google? Anybody on orkut with a distance of less than say 2 from a google employee automatically gets more consideration...
Have you noticed what happens when you have a Yahoo email account?
Well...They proudly promote their anti spam filtering. Just report any spam delivered to your inbox and in future....
...it gets delivered to your Yahoo junk mail box instead.
Just one catch...got to constantly keep emptying your junk mail and trash can to avoid Yahoo disabling your "free" account. Now, if you are really serious about fighting spam, you can always sign up for their premium (read pay) email service, to get extra storage.
I kept complaining to Yahoo about these mysterious emails I kept getting (150 mb in size) which were obviously spam...serious denial of service attacks...which quickly kept filling up my email. Hmmm....wonder why Yahoo never answered my complaint or took efforts to block the server where these were coming from?
The platform IS already here and its the biggest thing that has hit Silicon Valley since Netscape....Nova Spivack has been working on this for years with his MIT genius CTO Kris Thorensen.
The Radar Networks demo has literally blown Sand Hill Road out of their chairs and has become a thing of epic legend in the last month.
XML cannot keep pace with info overload. Its about Metadata and allowing RSS/RDF to function semantically; this has enormous implications to existing db and router architecture. And if by adopting this we could solve spam, allow darknets
and scale to billions of users...Guess what, Google may need to rethink timing on S-1 filings and Microsoft may end-up shitcanning Longhorn or at least renaming it LongGone or LongGong. So yee want to see Social Networking really scale, intelligently? Jeremy, thou needest Radar!
include('class.radar.php');
$radar = new radar();
$radar->ping();
I agree with you. Google's big weakness when compared to other potential competitors such as Yahoo, AOL, MSN is that Google doesn't have a relationship with its users. If a better search engine came along, you could just type in a different URL.
However, Yahoo and others have built a relationship with their users through other services (email, portal, groups, chat, etc.) so you don't see many people switching between them. Google needs to do the same while it has everyone's attention due to the hype around its IPO. Orkut is a good way of starting to build relationships with is user base and gain a greater understanding of their interests and needs to offer them tailored search and other related services and advertising.
Or Cut Orkut - it's just part of the Buzz
Google doesn't need Orkut. For marketable demographics, Google needs a killer-app/business model with demographics built-in and Orkut isn't it.
When you have all eyes on your every move, every litle thing you do is magnified. Orkut is a keen and simple example of this.
Is Orkut as a killer application? Email is a killer-app, as are instant email apps AOL IM, Yahoo Messenger, and MSN Messenger. Each counts tens of millions of registrations. Talk to any media buyer, and they will tell you the registered-user counts are highly inflated and discountable due to a)churn of the users, b) users with phantom accounts, c) users that open accounts and never do anything with them beyond the initial-use surge. But after all these discounts you STILL have tens of millions of users that volunteered 'some' level of demographics. These media buys worth doing because $50K-$500K a month is being bought. Orkut seems to make sense as another AdWords channel but that's about it.
I would heavily discount any of the social networking applications from having mass market penetration capabilities. Believing they do is wishful thinking and smacks of Silicon Valley's 'build it and they will come' mindset.
Orkut.com states Orfut is an "online meeting place where people can socialize, make new aquaintances and find others...". Online socializing is terribly inefficient, which is why I believe the mass market will continue to use the social platform of choice: Shoes toe to toe.
Hmmm...considering Google's knack for its "behind the scene" building tactics, they'll be a portal soon enough. But is it really in their future to compete with the likes of MSN, Yahoo!, etc.? especially when they seem to do one thing well? MSN and Y! have all been scrambling to catch up with Google in the search race. Is Google just approaching the same game from a different angle?
I want my orkut API.
http://dijest.com/aka/categories/identity/2004/02/01.html#a2699
I had the exact same thought. Also, Yahoo, MSN, AOL have Instant messengers, which automatically gets them on a preset social software network and have users locked in by their social network. Google has no barrier to prevent another party coming into their business except their excelent algos. I guess this is an attempt to lock in users.
Don't forget Ftrain's August 2009: How Google beat Amazon and Ebay to the Semantic Web.
The Orkut Identity system is part of the "Semantic Web”, it is also the a proto-Whuffie, as pre Cory Doctorow's Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom
http://falsepositives.blogspot.com/2004_02_01_falsepositives_archive.html#107577177248235888
Their TOS leaves a lot of room for them to exploit whatever they wish that appears on their site:
"By submitting, posting or displaying any Materials on or through the orkut.com service, you automatically grant to us a worldwide, non-exclusive, sublicenseable, transferable, royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable right to copy, distribute, create derivative works of, publicly perform and display such Materials."
Jeremy, sorry it took so long to answer your question, but blog comments are not useful for conversations.
w/r/t whether or not sales of memberships on eBay distort the web-of-trust being built, I don't think it does. We already exchange our trust in return for money. We say we know someone, because they paid us to say so. This is no different. What is does do is qualify the kind of knowledge represented, which may or may not weaken the tie between the two points -- if such a thing is measured.
Please , send me an orkut invitation ...
Thanks
graciamo2003@yahoo.es
I had the exact same thought. Also, Yahoo, MSN, AOL have Instant messengers, which automatically gets them on a preset social software network and have users locked in by their social network. Google has no barrier to prevent another party coming into their business except their excelent algos. I guess this is an attempt to lock in users.
he he he...
I landed up on this page thru a google search on orkut....
he he he...
Hi, my name is Greice, i´m brazilian (graças a Deus, pq aki naum tem Bin laden).
So, acabou o assunto... Bye!!
Well, offcourse that is the intention...
but I reckon they plan to sell the database to third parts...
Maybe to Microsoft? if they don't start doing they own sort of "orkut" (what that word means anyway?).
umm...so what? I think its a good business strategy...and good for socializing too? You're making it sound like some "evil-deed"...which its not. I think you should spend your time looking for a girl rather than cooking up strange cyber conspiracy~theories!
laterz~
Dear Friends, i want an invitation for getting an acount in Orkut. Please invite me.
Orkut, grande aplicativo de comunicação internacional reune em um só programa vários amigos e abre vácuos para viajar e encontrar novas amisades. Aqui no Brasil é um grande sucesso de inscrição, mais eu não consegui ainda me filiar a nenhum grupo. Parabens pelas suas amizades.
this system of invitation is just a politic for making business like other efforts in this world,so be honest,its not unique.
Difference between orkut and gmail. Noone is desperate for orkut. Agree with Jeremy.
Can you invite me to orkut?? My friend is trying to send me an invitation but it is not going throught. I really want to join. :D
can orkut include features such as voice chat or one to one chat if the other person is online aswell ........ if yes then what technology would be used ?
it is very nice. iam from hyd bvbps 8th standare. i want an invitation to join in orkut. com
Please , send me an orkut invitation ...
Thanks
iam 12 years please.................
Well here is something that i just experienced !!
It is INSECURE !!!
I was browsing the friends and communities and suddenly i realize that the group i created i dont own it it is owned by some guy Vejay in india and i hit the home button and vollah it is Vejays home page and i have all the controls :)
Well if i have his control and then somebody has mine ? !
So unless u r sure or want to share ur stuff dont put info on it .
ANZ
It is REALLY "INSECURE"
I had an account in orkut. One day I saw that my Photo has been changed and a terrible Image is instead of my image. I tried to change it but i was unsuccessful. I had not any control on my account so I deleted it.
Be careful about it.
dude do you like have to fucking critisize everything. think of it from the positive side man !!!
fucking pissimist!!!
For all its worth, I'd rather give my info to google than yahoo or msn anyday. If any company is going to know every inch of detail about my life, I'd rather it be a company that I appreciate and somewhat 'trust' rather than one that has no tact or redeemable value whatsoever.
Perhaps in these heady post-IPO days Google are too busy with letting you search your own pc, developing browsers (or not) and figuring out how to leverage their IM application to bother too much about Orkut. Probably not, but it...
ADVERTISING, ADVERTISING, ADVERTISING, ADVERTISING, ADVERTISING, ADVERTISING, ADVERTISING, ADVERTISING, ADVERTISING, what else could it be? Nobody likes the "world" this much to come and develop a program like this (which is nothing) and dedicate all these SERVERS to store ALL this information (which is everthing). This also brings up some ethical issues, most common ones being "stolen identities", and "invasion of privacy".
What do you all think about this?
But I should also mention that it is really fun to work with. For example, once search on orkut, I found four of my very close friend with whom I lost contact with years ago.
it's me again, Hapoosh. I didn't proof read my comment before I submit it, so excuse me for that everybody. And also, I wanted to continue by saying, blah, blah, blah, blah. Let's wait see what happens. Everybody knows why Orkut is there anyway (at least those familiar with 21st century online marketing.)
No, thats bad not many people would want to have info collected on them to be used for markting purpuses or anything thats a bad idea google gmail would go down
i totally agrre with you about googles data collecting but what can we do?
Uhmm, let's just see if Google is dumb enought to let their users down by using their info for markeing purpouses
just addition or something you already said, yahoo started right when it has enough information : personal and business regarding their membership but google doesn't have it and they just started as search engine that's all, now they need a fast way of gathering personal info on their visitors. that's why they turned to orkut
In my company, the manager hold the access to Orkut.com, What can I do to access orkut, by another way?
didn't anyone consider that google already has this sort of personal information through gmail?
if you haven't notice, gmail targets advertisements towards users based on keywords in emails.
salam-oalikum...........
1st time ......i use the orkut...i say ...its boooor....but its chane my veiws its not boooor ...its very useful...........nice...good..
thanks
orkut...
Hai please send me an orkut invitation to harrison@consultdoctor.net
Thank you
I think you're missing the point of what Google is. Check out their mission statement and company philosophy and then see if this technique you're suggesting fits in.
yeah i think your right....so is that the reason the created gmail too?
hi buddy i dont have an account on orkut so i cant visit the site and thats y i cant pass ne comments plz send me invitation after that i can pass some comments for u
thankx a lot
after reading all info about orkut i really wanna visit that site so plz send me invitation
tc
awais
Salaamz All,
I had been using google since almost last 7-9 years and it has always helped me a lot, then another step that i came to know at next was G-MAIL, That is a good thing as well and I like it personally and the last thing google came up with to me was ORKUT, I think Orkut is a good thing. Now in these days when we dont have time to visit pur friends, we can at least leave them a Scrap. I think in return of that if google gts some of our information, I dont mind it at all.
What do u ppl Think
:)
Take Cares
Allah Hafiz
ya great and all but what if you dont know anybody to invite you and that is why you want to chat to meet people. Dude I just came out of a crappy divorce and am a pretty hot 23 year old who feels bad as it is and then this thing is like going to the club and having the bouncer say no just because you look like an ex girlfriend. Sorry just a little testy right now.
Hello! All these negative comments. Has anyone noticed the word "Beta" stuck under the Orkut name? Sheesh!
Orkut's already got a first class association with goole... noticed the : link your google account to your Orkut account: bit they've got going on? They don't need an orkut.google.com Not only that, chances are google would do better things with that data then the government, AOL, YAHOO, MSN, Etc. combined ever could. Also, they don't need Orkut for that, they gave Google Desktop, which automatically records your every movement (see the timeline? Hmm, I wonder how many neurons you'd need to hook that up to a database?)...
Guy youre a genius...its wonderful you could make out what google was gonna do as early as a year n a half ago...but yes im not really worried about privacy n all...think it doesnt really matter, everybody collects data online and google only does it much more efficiently and without hurting us much...why didnt i think of starting google at the first place!!
look guys...
google's got it all right... it's got the best brains workin for it, and leave out it's mission statement and all that - can't u see what's happening ?
things are changing... we are actually using an email service that is FAST. and it is fun to use too.
what has google given us ?
Gmail, Google Desktop, Google Search, Toolbar, Orkut, what not ?
and what are we going to give google in return ?
some / all/none of our personal info... what's wrong in that ?
it is service we are getting, free of cost. And in return we just have to help them server us better.
I'm sure google is not stupid enough to be irresponsible with our info. Orkut rocks. Google rocks.
jesus, some of you guys are dense!
"sure, i'll give away some of my own personal information just so i can have this handy desktop search thingy!"
to paraphrase ben franklin
"People willing to give up freedom for a little safety, deserve neither freedom nor safety."
i don't know. the implications seem far more grim to me.
but i'll keep being paranoid and giving bogus information whenever i sign up for anything, as i've been doing since i've been online.
I would appreciate an invite to orkut! so if u have one be a good person and send one over to mario.ugliano@gmail.com
why does ORKUT give SOOOOO MANYYYY 'No donuts for u'... + soooooo many times the orkut server is down!!
unable to handle the traffic or what???
i really like Orkut but these days it sucks..
Here is why google needs orkut.
http://search-engine-blog.seocase.net/2006/03/18/google-and-nikes-communit-game-jogacom-exclusive-screenshots/
Guys.
i've been reading this conversation from the beginning.... I found it very interesting. I've had orkut since it came out. Us brazilians seem obsessed about it.
This provides us with ways to find people we have not seen in years or family members in different counties. (me for example)
It's also a very good tool to keep an eye on people. Your boyfriend/girlfriend, mother, father, son, daughter. Your able to see who they are relating to, Who they will meet with and etc.
So, to conclude, like everything else on earth it has its good side and bad sides. you just have to learn to use it with discretion.
Beijos Yasmin
'
P.s
if anyone wants me to invite them to orkut, e-mail me.
welkene@hotmail.com. I wont charge.
I landed on this page when i launched a Google search for Orkut. I am a regular Orkut user and see no harm in using this service. Its a great way to stay in touch with your friends. Find your old friends( If they are in Orkut) and meet new ones.
Cheers
hey alll...there help me
the network administrator is blocking me from opening orkut ...please help me to cheat them....my mail id is
mealexwilly@yahoo.com
please reply as soon as possible
hi im abhishek
MY network administrator has bloked me from opening orkut ...please help me to cheat them....my mail id is
abhi10dilse@yahoo.co.in
im very impressed wit ths, tats wat i can say at a moment..
and u wont even imagin tat im a person who really hates chatting.. but still when i heard tat wit ths we can get back wit our old friends.. now im very eager to get this accoun.. so any buddies.. pls send an invitation for me to.. guideclothstores@indiatimes.com
and i if any one frm manipal.. old primary friends pls do mail for this.. and my contact no... tat secret!! so lets chat ha.. see ya..
orkut !! AT THE COST OF WHAT !!
I really appreciate this idea google has come up with ORKUT. A very nice way to stay in touch with long lost friends. But the amount of personal information made public here, tell me how safe is it. I have ended up with someone stealing my pictures and creating a fake account and hell bent on defaming me... Now can Orkut stop this!! I doubt if it can help curb this as its report abuse is of no use in such cases. I think google needs to seriously think about the security issues as this is just another one in a million social networking websites....What say !!
Hey ! so long discussion on orkut, read most of comments .
i m using orkut for last 6 months , not getting any problem ,well if you are thinking of user information that can't be used because most of information is given fake isn't is?
and i really dont mind !!
According to the research World's most popular search engine
searches 33% of WORLD WIDE WEB.What about rest.
To start knowing that Google had a brilliant idea of having orkut.
Its a people's database. i will tell you why?how orkut helps
google .
Google Search Engine works on page rank. the page rank of ur site depends on how many back links point to ur page
calc
T/N + PAGE OF RANK OF OTHER PAGE/NOF OF OUTLINKS TO UR PAGE.
T is set to 0.15 minimise calculation
N web pages
so when google bot searches pages it finds any new website or link is added to the google repository.
so orkut helps ? how? people enter their profile . the profile has there web link or blog link. orkut is like a fish market where google bot can find new links and old links . the page algol does subset of the links already present and not present in its repository A intersection B gives new weblinks or blog links or highly paid keyword or definition or news by this way orkut helps google to find new website THAT ARE NOT ALREADY TRAVESED BY GOOGLE BOT OR FAILED TO FIND FROM EXISTING BINARY TREE OF LINKS.
so what is orkut?
orkut is a base
it has collection of links.
so who is hub ?
a web page that has many outlinks.
so orkut is a link farm.
any comments on this please.i m interested.i have one question does google bot program has choice of using different algorithm when traverses different pages.
hello i want to become a member of orkut for that what i should do when i am trying to log in means it asking that a member of orkut should welcome to open a account. so, what i should do? for this. pl. advice me.
thanking you,
suri.
Orkut invitation please to : kahalijoy@gmail.com
Thanks,
Joy
I think google has done its job. Orkut has captured each and every individual.
WEEL AS A USER IF ANY FREE WEB BASE SERVICES LIKE ORKUT , REDIFF-CONNEXIONS KEEP ME IN TOUCH WITH SOCIAL , WHY SHOULD I THINK ABOUT ANY GAMES PLAYED BY GOOGLES OR ANY OTHER WEBS
hi iam purnima ,
i gt to know abt orkut thru my friend. i want to become a member of orkut hw do i go abt doing it . kindly reply back
thanks n regds purnima
this blog is very nice , i just get to learn many things frm it!
kalpam pacahuri roks yaar!
even suhani roks
hey it workd yaar, google iss just in a rela show bizzz, thy want more and more membrs attractd to gmail. so thts y thy ask fr a gmail id fr oekut!!!
I agree with you mate.. and infact.. I raised that question in discussion on some popular sites.. but most people are still unaware of the dangers imposing on us.
I have been always suspicious of Google as to how come they provide everything free to millions of users.
Fine.. Google has advertising.. but still.. how much can it earn to fund that evergrowing need of technology in Google's services.
And thats when i stumbled upon the word "Privacy".
Privacy is one thing which we have been compromising when we are using Google. Google indexes all our data like, the searches we make, pages we visit, stuff we buy and everything which we do on the net.
Now term it up with the data Google has of us.. and just imagine what they can do with us.
Well.. I am not here to convince you all against Google.. But as for me.. I have stopped using Google :)
Its interesting to note that "better integrate" Orkut with Google thing has already happened!!!
Hi
In my opinion there are two ways Google is earning from Orkut.
1. It is compiling data generated by millions of users like the pages they visit, their likes and dislikes, communities, forums etc. This information can be used in refining its search engine algorithms to make the search results in Google more targeted and specific, which would give the users a more satisfying experience. More satisfaction with Google as a search engine would naturally mean more and more people flock to it. The increase in numbers could be used by Google to advertise itself to advetisers to use its Google Adwords for promoting their sites and services. Once the advetisers know that Google has so much user reach, they would be attracted more, hence more reveneu.
2. Second way of earning form Orkut would be indirect earnings. Using orkut by your Google account is the preferred way of utilizing this free service. A user is more like to migrate to Gmail when he finds out that a single Google account gives him access to all services from Google; Gmail, Orkut, Blogger, Adsense etc. Slowly and slowly the user base of Google increases which helps Google in claiming a huge database of users which it can use to attract advertisers to advertise with it. In addition, the site value of its Gmail service itself increases. As per an estimate by www.websitevaluecalculator.com the value of Gmail is $670,435,385
And Orkut does not show any ads, at least not in India. So that could be the explanation.
You can see that we are talking big money here
After all, you do need to earn something to sustain yourself. Thats what I'm struggling to do for my World's First Social Networking Site for Orissa, India
Anil Pandey
www.utkalbandhu.com
How much of an access would a google or an orkut employee have to my personal information if I have some of it entered on my Orkut profile , but set to private?
I am in a strange predicament.I am being cyberstalked by someone who claims to be an employee of google/orkut.He seems to have read all my messages and even my scraps which I have had set as 'private'. He also seems to go through my album which is visible only to my friends.
I am not from a technical field so I have no clue about this.
I am mystified because I am a 100% sure there are no keyloggers or trojans on my computer for him to have an access to my orkut password. Frankly the idea of a stranger keeping a tab on what I am talking to my friends about creeps me out.
I am mulling lodging a police complaint against this person.But I just need to know..
Type your comment here.
After you submit the comment, check your email. There will be
a link you need to click to make your comment visible.
Your email address WILL NOT appear on the site, so don't worry
about being anonymous, even if you think you are.
anyways orkut is a great stress buster... connected to a distant friend is also a cool thing.....
Does Orkut have professional pages for us performers. I do some Brazilian songs and need a platform like Orkut, but worry about Google security issues I have read about, such as worms embedded in Jpeg photos and innocent looking links.
